A conversation on art, fashion, politics, society and the future between Francesco Vezzoli, one of the most renowned contemporary Italian artists in the world, and Glenn Martens, a Belgian talent who is now the creative director of&nbsp; Y/Project&nbsp;and of the Diesel brand founded by Renzo Rosso.

Text by GIAMPIETRO BAUDO &amp; SIMONE VERTUA

"I'm a big fan of yours, Glenn&hellip; I was impressed when I came to see your last show for Diesel, because in addition to clothing, I think that in recent years and with your shows both you and Renzo (Rosso, founder of Diesel , ed.) have reached a new level in making fashion accessible to the general public. It's a strong political statement. I come from the art world which is a bit oppressed by small mafias, galleries and powerful critics. And instead, you and Renzo opened your arms to anyone who wanted to live the fashion experience. It's become like football, but in a good way. Congratulations". 
Francesco Vezzoli does not hold back his enthusiasm at the beginning of this conversation via Zoom between him, one of the most successful contemporary Italian artists worldwide, and <a href="https://www.lofficielusa.com/fashion/glenn-martens-jean-paul-gaultier-collection-spring-summer-2022-couture" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Glenn Martens</a>, one of the most relevant designers of the new generation, now creative director of Y/Project and <a href="https://www.lofficielusa.com/fashion/diesel-glenn-martens-spring-summer-2022-collection" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Diesel</a>. "
Thank you! It is true. I think fashion and art are quite similar in this sense. Sometimes it is quite difficult to get certain concepts across every action, with it being a show or an advertising campaign, it is always more political than it may seem. And this is certainly what I am looking forward to with Diesel: having an alternative voice in this great fashion industry, which is a little saturated today. When we discussed it with Renzo we wanted to propose something different, totally unique."
L'OFFICIEL: Both of you are approaching your world trying to bring a new message, embracing your community, Francesco, for art and Glenn for fashion, with a different, provocative language. How do you deal with your world of reference? FRANCESCO VEZZOLI: Oh my goodness, with drugs. I'll be very honest, in most cases the art world has become like a giant shopping mall for the rich. We are about to get closer to a Venice Biennale, which is no longer just the Venice Biennale, fashion houses are organizing dinners and sponsoring exhibitions. It feels like the Cannes Film Festival, Hollywood Oscar night and the Super Bowl all rolled into one. It's positive because we can't complain when capitalism takes possession of a creative field, but at the same time, it seems to experience it a bit as if it were violence. I just finished an interview in which they asked me: &ldquo;Are you worried about the relationship between the Biennial and the new political trend?&rdquo; and I replied: &ldquo;I'm not because in Venice there are more than ten private foundations that can give the city a varied cultural offering. And at this point the Biennale will no longer be a hegemonic event, it is the city itself that becomes a center for culture." This is good and I guess it's the same for a designer, if you want visibility, if you want to take on bigger projects, you have to survive in a more competitive environment. I don't want this to sound like a complaint, but to make our plans, we have to put up with a system that has become complex. GLENN MARTENS: It's always the same dilemma: we have to sell in order to build a dream and have the freedom to develop creativity and our own art. Of course you also have to play the capitalism game and sell t-shirts to celebrate creativity in fashion shows. Fashion is not art, but to have the privilege of satisfying my artistic ideas, I have to sell a lot of denim and a lot of T-shirts, which I don't mind at all. I think the biggest difference between me and Francesco is that I work on products more than on art. And I think we should never forget that when we talk about fashion it's about reality and products. It's a business.

LO: What are the relationships between fashion and art today? Are these two environments moving and evolving independently? GM: From my point of view, fashion has a precise mission: to make people feel powerful in the clothes they wear, to make them feel how they want to be perceived. While for art there is a little more abstraction from reality. I am amazed by art that takes me away from my real existence, makes me dream and enters a sort of wonderland that exists in my brain. FV: I think fashion is in a better place today than art. Because the things that Glenn has just listed define a new horizon for the designer who has become a public and political figure capable of making declarations: the moment you have this power you have a great privilege. I feel that artists today are more similar to couturiers in the 1950s, for example Crist&oacute;bal Balenciaga. We have to take care of collectors just like old ladies went to Balenciaga to have a dress made. It's funny, but art should be more democratic. I think in a way fashion is more democratic now. I'm jealous, in a good way, of what Glenn can do: we're more trapped in being like court jesters for the plutocrats. You are more connected with the new generations. Through your work, you can reach a young and broad audience and you probably empower them with your fashion. I find myself having dinner with many important people, but it's another way of doing politics, I think your approach is more direct: you can speak to a large audience, with campaigns or with shows. We artists, on the other hand, are still trapped with the politics of galleries and museums, then yes, we try to make people dream, but only if we can dream ourselves. <span class="s3" style="background-color: transparent; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant-ligatures: inherit; font-variant-caps: inherit; font-weight: inherit; letter-spacing: 0px;">

LO: How did you approach your reference worlds? GM: I don't really have a fashion background. I grew up in a small provincial town, Bruges, where I can say that you couldn't feel contemporaneity. As a boy I used to say that Bruges was a sleeping beauty. But I grew up in a little gem, surrounded by the wonder of architecture. And this has had an incredible impact on my aesthetic. As a child I was obsessed with history, with fairy tales. From a world of queens and knights. From that slightly Disney-esque universe with a dramatic touch. I have always loved drawing and I have always been fascinated by clothes. Subconsciously I loved how they conveyed the spirit of the character who wore them, his strength. I think my first fashion memory is precisely this: I liked understanding and studying how to convey the character of my characters through their clothes.
FV: When I was a child my parents took me to see exhibitions of Arte Povera and Conceptual Art. My parents weren't collectors, simply because they weren't rich enough to be, but they were interested in art. And for me since I was a child there was in some way an approach with a perception of art certainly in a very contemporary key. Then at 18 I decided to leave Brescia, I had absolutely no clear ideas but I really liked the idea of ​​Central Saint Martins in London, it seemed like a school from which many interesting talents had come out and so I entered with a scholarship - it was pre-Brexit times and England was very open to supporting studies - and I lived there for 4-5 years. Between school, life and the people I met in London it was natural to think that being an artist would be a world where I could experiment with all the different territories and I simply had great luck, and perhaps even the determination, to having meetings that definitely inspired me, from Leigh Bowery to Cerith Wyn Evans. People from different creative worlds who made me think that I couldn't go back and that I would have to indulge my desires.
LO: I know the creative process is different: you Glenn, you have to come up with new ideas every three months working on different brands. What inspires you when you create? GM: &nbsp; I have to create every day because, of course, I work with two brands, and then there are many campaigns, categories and assets to imagine, collaborations and so on: it's non-stop work and I have to find something creative every day. Inspiration always starts from the values ​​of the brand. This was a very different exercise for Y/Project as Diesel already existed: Renzo had created his brand 40 years before I arrived. And for Diesel I work on the founding values ​​of the brand. For Y/Project we work on products as a starting point, so it's not so much about creating a dream, but we always try to surprise ourselves. FV: I use my profession to not get bored in my life. I found myself making videos in Hollywood, I worked with theater and now I'm focused on the Venice Biennale where I'm taking control of the Correr Museum, one of Carlo Scarpa's most important museum institutions where the most important masterpieces of the 13th century are preserved and 14th century. It is certainly a great challenge. I know some people from younger generations think that I work in an old-fashioned way, because I always want to surprise myself, surprise the audience or make something like a statement, but I can't think otherwise. So what Glenn said is music to my ears. It means that we are still putting our heart into our profession. This fear of boredom is a sign of great honesty. <span class="s3" style="background-color: transparent; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant-ligatures: inherit; font-variant-caps: inherit; font-weight: inherit; letter-spacing: 0px;">

LO: How important is time in your creation journey? GM: I think it's the positive, but also negative factor of fashion: it's all very fast but it's easy to spread a message, communicate it, reach an audience quickly with Instagram, social media or fashion shows. But you have to do it constantly because people get bored easily and always want something new. So, the downside is that it's a gift that never ends, it's a gift that lasts all year. I think art benefits from a little more processing time to produce the new. I think that art requires much more reflection, and more emotion because it is a high form of creativity, while fashion, ultimately, is production.
FV: I work at night because I need the moment when no one calls, no one sends emails, no one sends messages on WhatsApp... In those hours of silence I can do my work, I can embroider, I can be completely alone and take my time to create something that can transport people to another place. I think that Glenn probably works during the day and he works with efficiency and organization. Maybe he would like to be in my place, but I would like to be in his place. And that's a good thing.
GM: They say the grass is always greener on the other side, and it's true. Sometimes I dream of having more time to reflect or simply that having more time is an amazing thing. I think about when I worked on haute couture with Jean-Paul Gaultier and I think it was one of the most exciting jobs I've ever done, because you work on the same dress for weeks and it's so nice to have time to reflect. There is no real commercial value, it's pure creativity, it's haute couture.

LO: If you could choose, instead of becoming a designer and an artist, what would you have wanted to be? GM: I would have liked to be a landscape architect or gardener. I think there is something very meditative and thoughtful about seeing plants grow and evolve: putting your hands in the earth connects you to reality. I think one of the biggest problems is that my life passes so quickly and I never have time to really reflect on what I'm doing. I'm always travelling. I was at Diesel for three years and it went by in a split second. I feel like I don't have time to really enjoy what I'm doing because I'm always in a rush. This idea of ​​gardening would be quite enjoyable, it forces you to live in the present and enjoy life. FV: Well, I'll give you a suggestion, you should convince Renzo to finance a gigantic new garden for Milan, you should design it yourself. GM: That would be nice! It would be my personal garden. Imagine it, create it, plant it. See the flowers and plants grow. Work, sweat&hellip; reconnect with the earth. Have a project to celebrate slowness. And for you, Francesco, if you were not an artist, what is your dream? FV: I don't know! Maybe being a fashion designer would be fun. It could be nice. GM: We are attracted to opposites. I really like the idea of ​​Francesco staying up all night working on his art at home alone, it's a bit like my idea of ​​gardening. It's the privilege of being able to think and take the time to do something. And he, on the contrary, would instead like my frenzy. FV: You know, embroidery or gardening are things for old ladies. In which&nbsp;the slow passage of time plays a fundamental role. &nbsp;

«Artists today are more similar to the couturiers of the &#39;50s. We have to take care of collectors like the old ladies who went to the atelier to have a dress made.&quot; Francesco Vezzoli

Jean Paul Gaultier Couture Spring 2022 by Glenn Martens Photo by Arnaud Lajeunie

LO: What moment in your career are you most proud of? FV: I don't know, I've had so many lives and so many different projects. Maybe the real masterpiece is surviving, and it's not a joke, but it's reality. You have to survive the system, get people to work for and with you. It's about having emotional resilience. Don't you think so, Glenn? Maybe it's the same for you: being able to survive all the pressures and tensions you receive... GM: Yes, I think you're right. Fashion has a very high turnover: creative directors are kicked out of brands and rehired elsewhere, and fashions come and go. This exhausting need to renew means always being on the edge. You don't have to think about it too much otherwise it could get scary. Diesel is a powerhouse with over 450 stores distributed across the world and with thousands of employees. When I start to think about the importance or the impact of a small creative decision of mine, the change of a denim treatment or the transition from a classic denim to an organic denim, can have on all this, I am intimidated thinking about the impact that these choices may have on many families. But in the meantime, I have to renew, because people always expect newness and freshness from our work! Surviving this dichotomy is a great thing, yes. FV: One of the answers Glenn gave, that he feels his job is to empower people, made me think of something. A few evenings ago I went to a lecture by the philosopher Paul B. Preciado. According to his theory at this moment in history, the revolution occurs on the body. I think fashion designers are the first supporters of it. Clothing has a much more important weight than other languages ​​compared to 30 or 40 years ago. So Glenn like other stylists are providing tools for a real revolution. And yes, I understand you, you have a great responsibility. When you can't sleep at night, I can teach you to embroider, it's very relaxing. GM: Boredom is like the enemy we have to fight against, we always look for excitement. What am I most proud of in my career? Always from my latest collection. There will come a time when I will no longer be and then the time will come to retire and say to myself: "Ok it's time to go grow flowers in the countryside". &nbsp;

&laquo;I wish fashion a slowdown: the whole process of rapid consumption of clothes is&nbsp;too polluting, &nbsp; it's too burdensome for the world." &nbsp; Glenn Martens

LO: What are your thoughts on the future of fashion and the art system? GM: What I really hope for is a slowdown. I think the whole process of rapidly consuming clothes is too polluting, too burdensome on the world. I hope people can mentally go back to how they were, I think of my grandparents when they bought clothes, they bought wisely and took care of them, they repaired them when they broke instead of throwing them away. Art pollutes much less, but fashion today is extremely polluting. I understand very well that I am working in a capitalist industry, but this slow fashion could become tomorrow's reality. I can say that 50% of my jeans for Diesel are organic, in recycled cotton. All my t-shirts, made of organic cotton, have water-based prints. I hope to be part of this process to create a better future. <span class="s4" style="background-color: transparent; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant-ligatures: inherit; font-variant-caps: inherit; font-weight: inherit; letter-spacing: 0px;">FV: <span class="s3" style="background-color: transparent; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant-ligatures: inherit; font-variant-caps: inherit; font-weight: inherit; letter-spacing: 0px;">I think Glenn just gave a very noble answer, but he's in a different position. I feel like there are already two worlds of art. On the one hand, the one strongly linked to art fairs, galleries, the market and collectors. On the other hand there is a planet made up of cultural hierarchies of museum directors, of some critics who have a certain relevance. I don't know if I will ever become the king of this first market, perhaps I would prefer to become the king of museums. I don't know if these two worlds will connect again. I don't have this kind of optimism for my field, and I feel that the commercial world is dominant right now, and I believe it will be for the next ten to twenty years. As far as I'm concerned, I think that in the last five or ten years, I have had the privilege of carrying out cultural projects, because I chose them that way or simply because I made them more cultural with my intervention. But if someone wants me to become the king of the market, of course, I wouldn't back down!

Creative Dialogues: Glenn Martens and Francesco Vezzoli

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